Jacques Vallee on Christopher 'Kit' Green (II of II) (excerpts from Forbidden Science Document/Research I retain huge respect for Kit but we had a curious phone conversation last Wednesday. We haven't met since our discussion at the Detroit airport over a year ago. We last spoke on the phone on November 3rd following insinuations by a shadowy Armen Victorian that Kit, Hal Puthoff, and Pandolfi were keeping too many bizarre A year and a half ago I started a project to check into what you'd told me about Northeastern Brazil, Kit began, but Im not finding what I thought I'd find. I've gone after forensic data, but what came back correlates strongly with military operations instead. What do you mean? I jumped, surprised at this introduction. At the most important sites you mentioned, namely Belm, Parnarama, Sobral, and Fortaleza, there were indeed some medical events, but did you know those sites were co-located with aerospace facilities, second only to the French spaceport at Kourou? All this is close to the places where the medical anomalies occurred. Three of the provinces have a medico- legal institute with good files, just like a County medical examiner's office in the States, so I sent people with a forensic background looking through every medical archive. In the area there are mutilation murders, were you aware of that? People see magical attributes in them. The Indians in the area never go anywhere alone. Indians? What Indians? I thought to myself as I heard this. This made no sense. Most people in Parnarama are not Indians. Ive seen young girls go off to hunt alone, a rifle on their shoulder, and kids play in the bush all the time. Yet Kit now dismisses all Brazilian sightings as a colocation of military bases with unusual medical incidents, high-level verbal reporting of deaths and illnesses and attribution of magical causes to normal In other words, he thinks there may be something a bit strange in all this, such as an environmental agent linked to aerospace activity, but certainly no UFOs. Here we run into intellectual analyses ignoring local conditions, the intense complexity of the cultures and social differences between medical researchers in big city hospitals and their mosquito-bitten colleagues in the bush. There are no aerospace facilities near Parnarama, a hamlet with no paved roads, not even any bridges to cross the river. Kits speculations don't begin to explain the chupas or the three months of low-flying UFOs recorded by the Intelligence task force at Mosqueiro. Kit then argued that Pandolfi's interest in crop circles was peripheral to his real work, that hed never gone to England, and that George Winfields trip was irrelevant: That crowd make all sorts of claims, including that lady crop circle researcher, just because she had lunch with Ron once. Then what do you think the crop circles are? I insisted. Infrared and microwaves combined, as you once showed me. The guys at the Department of Agriculture have chambers where they're begun experiments of their own. I've satisfied myself that it was physically possible to r/UFOs5y ago iama_newredditor ...continued from part I Log Inr/UFOsSearch in r/UFOs Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. do it, at least with hydrated grain. Some engineers over there in England are having fun. So at least we agree on that: hes come around to the conclusion Velasco and Payan reached a year ago, based on their own lab work. What do you think now, about the phenomenon? I asked Kit. My ideas have changed dramatically in the last two years. There's a fascinating system here, which is not military, not government. Pandolfi doesn't have access to it. There may well be actual UFO technology somewhere but I think the business is simple. Is Pandolfi fooling around with the crazies? Why? There's real data he could get if he wanted to, I insinuated. Kits answer surprised me: He gets the most real data there is! The chief science adviser to the French project came to see him secretly, the guy who oversees GEPAN. The British ministry of defenses chief scientist also spent two days with him. He gets all their data. Still, that CIA office may be only the tip of a very strange iceberg. The phenomenon is not ultra-dimensional or psychic, Kit went on. Its not amenable to traditional analysis but it's not magical either. I haven't really discussed UFOs with Ron. He keeps sending me stuff but we haven't talked about the subject for a year and a half. He's seen the imaging material from spacecraft, all the data. He knows the objects are real and not electrical gremlins. Three years ago the Director appointed him to get all the briefings and follow the subject. He goes back and forth to Brazil. But he doesn't know what the System is, and how it's managed. There were so many contradictions in that statement that I didnt even try to sort them out. It sounded like a recorded speech. You have to understand that mere curiosity has never granted anybody access to a closed system, in the whole history of Intelligence. The only way to gain access is to provide value. Then you start getting stuff back. So yes, Ron does spend time going around requesting information about The System, but he never gets it. He thinks UFOs are just another enigma, as there are so many in our field, rich in superficial technical data, but meaningless. He thinks the private sector only has soft data. He's a physicist. UFOs are not his main job. In fact, he's coming over here tomorrow to talk about non-destructive testing. That's his real expertise, acoustic resonance scattering. UFOs are something fun he does when he's ready to close his office. And he didn't go to England. I know this because he didn't even have a passport until two weeks ago. Then how did he get to Brazil? You said... He didn't go to Brazil, he sent people there; he got data from there. And it had nothing to do with UFOs. What am I supposed to do with all these contradictory claims? If he thinks ufologists are crazy, I went on, why is he becoming so visible in their community? Why does he even talk to them? People beat a path to Ron's door. He gets all sorts of pictures, videotapes. You should see his office! There's a whole culture building up around him. He's a very bright guy; he feels obligated to listen to the crazies, but he knows that what they say makes no sense. He's got a reputation as open-minded. He's got one assistant at CIA who does nothing but screen UFO data. Kit went on: Whenever ufologists come to him with data he triggers extensive background investigations, using the resources of his office; he gets their banking records, he sets up telephone taps, I've never seen so many background checks. He wants to know why they're coming. He doesn't think there's a mystery; he just finds recreation in oddities. Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. That doesn't add up to a picture of someone who is open-minded, I thought, so as I hung up I was even more puzzled than before. [...]the fellow who runs the mailbox service made a point of apologizing to me today. As if to underline Kits statements, he told me that most of my mail always arrived after everybody else's and was often left in the outside box. The mail usually gets delivered by 9 am, but mine only arrives at noon. Janine has read about my conversation with Kit. She was incensed. She thinks the Spooks are trying to use me: They contradict themselves all the time; don't you see they lie to you? The stuff about Brazil makes no sense. What did they know about it before your book Confrontations revealed where the events happened, the places and the names? Why do they rely on people who don't know what to look for? You remember the fishermen you and I spoke to there, and 10,000 photographs from Colares, bought up by unnamed visitors? Why didn't CIA track them down? She is right, of course: none of that makes sense. It shows absurd reliance on a system that consistently leads government agencies astray. I have seen it at work at ARPA, and in the SRI psychic project. Janine put down my notes, curled up on the sofa and said, You're the one who first told them what the crop circles were, remember? Would the Agency spend so much time on Brazilian UFOs, if they had real data? I keep finding more contradictions in Kit's statements. If the study of UFOs is something Pandolfi only does to amuse himself at CIA, what do they talk about when the head of the French UFO research project comes over? Or his British counterpart? Would they spend so much time on Brazilian incidents, sending agents with medical training to study old archives, if they had hard data? If there is nothing to the UFO question, why does the CIA appoint someone as the central point for UFO information? But if theres something to it, why appoint someone who sneers at the data? Still upset about my conversation with Kit about Brazil, I had to talk to someone who knew the ground truth so I went to see Pamela de Maigret [...] Pamela is the real thing, not an occasional tourist like those CIA guys. She recalled her days as manager of a mining project deep in the Amazon, when she stumbled upon German encampments and became entangled with Israeli agents who were chasing neo-Nazis. Of course the US government has only vague ideas about what goes on: the mysteries are deep and the cultures complex, she said. Kit called me today from GM Labs in Michigan. We exchanged good wishes and talked about the soap opera of ufology: The topic has taken a further psychotic turn, he said. There's been a change, even within the government. Ive developed a model of the contagious nature of this craziness. It reminds me of what we saw in the Sixties and Seventies with LSD, I said, mythology oozing out of secret government projects, first infecting government people, and later the general population. Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. He disagreed: That's not a good model, because the appeal of LSD was highly selective; it touched only a subset of personalities, while the UFO ideology spreads much more like a virus that infects everybody. We've got a fascinating paradox here: On one side, I'm more convinced than ever that there is a real research project that has to do with something as physically real as coffee cups: a small, very focused, very secret investigation run by real scientists--but I still can't find it. On the other hand, there's this whole fabricated world... It's a virtual reality construct, I volunteered. Exactly. My model of it assumes a slow cerebral disease, a virus of the nervous system. It affects one's ability to Michael Levine had warned me about exactly that. The reality of an undercurrent, actively driven from Washington, is becoming increasingly obvious. The enigmatic Dan T. Smith is setting up meetings all over the Bay Area, again claiming direction from Pandolfi. He dangles money and rumors, arranging luncheons with people, taking their photographs, taping conversations. He claims that Robert Frosh (former NASA boss, now at GM) ran a secret UFO study at the Johnson Spacecraft Center in the mid-1970s along with Kit, using microwaves to study their effect on human behavior. Kit urges me to meet Dan Smith: why is he pushing me into this mess? Should I mention that Smith spreads the rumor that Kit was involved in MK-Ultra and isnt somebody on whom you should turn your back? Those games are too subtle for me. Dan T. Smith phoned my office this morning, telling my assistant he was referred to me by his two good friends Fred Beckman and Kit Green. Over dinner with Hal I expressed my puzzlement about Kits apology for his colleagues. Futurist John Petersen, who has done work for the Coast Guard about strategic threats, is a friend of CIA director James Woolsey. He urged him to look for UFO data. Woolsey reportedly turned to Ron Pandolfi, who merely gave him a file of clippings. When he demanded to be shown the real stuff he was assured the CIA didn't have any. Such is the unlikely story Petersen was told. Kit called this afternoon. We hadnt spoken in months: I couldnt understand why hed urged me to meet Dan Smith, back in February. Kit said hed come to consider two scenarios. The first one had to do with the fact that You and I are just beginning to recognize to what extent many people are delusional. Five percent of the population is nearly psychotic by the time they reach age 50; many maintain their delusions and live normally. Occasionally they even become psychiatrists--or CIA analysts, he chuckled. Jolly West at UCLA thinks they're looking for a healthy outlet for their craziness! Fine, I said, unconvinced, What's the second scenario? The second scenario is that the core story, the UFO story, is real in what you and I have called the 'coffee cup' sense. But it creates spinoff stories that infect people. In other words, it spreads a mental virus to which people fall victim. I'm really interested in this, because I think it's epidemiology pure and simple. Tests can be developed. 90% of the UFO soap opera is a mental illness. Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. I just had to counter: ''You and I work every day with professional folks who believe that Mary remained a virgin even though Jesus had two brothers, and she flew up to Heaven in her earth body, and you don't call them crazy: you just call them Catholics. Catholics get promoted at GM like everybody else, don't they? ''That's not the same thing at all, he replied testily. Religion, as a belief system, is quite distinct from what I'm talking about. I'm not so sure, I said. Look at the poor occult converts in Switzerland and Canada, those fake Templars who committed mass suicide. Look at the Peoples' Temple... The only difference between a crazy sect and an honorable religion is the number of followers. Kit Green is a friend and a knowledgeable scientist, so why do you think he sends me all this stuff, brushing off abductions as dissociative mental phenomena? I asked a well-connected friend. He's trying to confuse you, he answered without hesitation. There are not more than five people who can get behind Vallee on this topic; Kit Green is one of them. So, he's throwing you a curve. Either that, or he's a bit confused himself, like Gordon Cooper... Don't be ridiculous, hes one of the top experts in mind control! Scott Jones called my office today. [...] He did clarify what had happened in [President Clinton's Science Advisor] Jack Gibbons' office, adding useful touches to the scene: there were no less than three meetings with Gibbons. At the first meeting the Presidents advisor was extraordinarily nervous. I've known this man for ten years, Scott told me, and Id never seen him so uncomfortable. He wasn't ready for the meeting and couldn't imagine why anybody, let alone a distinguished insider like Laurance, would take that UFO stuff seriously. At the second meeting he was waiting for the CIA's report on UFOs and hadn't received it, so he was mad at the Agency. It was a very irate Jack Gibbons who requested a classified briefing. Scott believes that Kit went up to deliver it, and he may have briefed Al Gore, too. Dick Farley took off in a huff, and he kicked up a lot of cow pies on the runway as he did. Laurance didn't write to the President but the matter went as high as the White House Chief of Staff. This confirmed that Clinton's Chief of Staff had been briefed to make sure the President wouldn't be open to further manipulation. Professor Eric Walker died three days ago. He was the former President of Penn State University who served as executive secretary of the Pentagons R&D board along with physicist Sarbacher, who claimed to have attended a secret meeting at WPAFB to discuss crashed Aliens. Ufologist William Steinman reportedly had validation of the statements, but Walker wouldnt confirm or deny to Kit that four Aliens had been picked up and one had Fred Beckman called today, as he often does, in an urgent conspiratorial tone. There's a new rumor, he said, almost as if he was about to accuse me of some dreadful crime. It's about you! Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. I had to laugh: What did I do this time? My sources tell me that while you were in Brazil, the military down there showed you some films of alien autopsies. I laughed louder: Where are these rumors coming from? From Durant, surprisingly, he confessed. And Dan T. Smith. I must have given an audible sigh of disgust, because he went on: I know, it figures, doesn't it? Dan Smith got it from Ron Pandolfi at CIA. Pandolfi claims he got it from Kit (Vallee's note: Planting such rumors, as I learned much later, is standard CIA practice. It serves to draw people into narratives the government wants to spread, either to make the yarn look more interesting, or to question the credibility of researchers who may be too close to the truth about a particular situation. But is it legal for the CIA to dupe the U.S. public in this way?) Hal had dinner with CIA director James Woolsey after he left office, so he asked him about his review of UFO documents at the Agency. Woolsey punted, telling him hed asked his historian to give him an assessment of what CIA knew. Not true, according to Kit, who brought up the question of classified files with the historian: The man didn't want to touch it. This is either miscommunication or another instance of Agency double-talk. Im starting to get used to it. I just got an excited phone call from Bob Bigelow: We've made progress on our board of advisors, he began. Keep it confidential, but it will be chaired by Kit Green. [...] But nobody in the group has done any extensive field research, even within the U.S., I pointed out. Theyve got narrow filters. That's why we need you to join the Board. I told him I would talk to Kit and Hal to hear their plans. Hal confirmed that Kit had agreed to chair Bigelow's Board. [...] the CIA missed the collapse of the Soviet Union, so what are the chances theyll understand UFOs? Hal was well aware of these problems; he didn't think Kit had much information either. Kit has made it clear he welcomed a chance for us to work together. We cleared the air. When Bigelow suggested he head up the science board he put down a series of conditions: the board would have an independent policy, not dictated by Bob; Kit would have right of first refusal on any name proposed for membership; he would request sensible confidentiality, not the silly kind. In addition, he would be free to pursue the psychological paradigm of dissociation that he felt was most useful to account for the abductees' belief system. They got me to Santa Fe by using the promise of rock-solid data as a hook, he added. Alexander told me they had four very strong cases to show me. They turned out to be garbage. I even have trouble with Hal, when Skip to main content Server error. Try again later. he trusts all the remote viewing claims. Who else will be on the board? I went on. I think we can get Jack Schmidt, Kit answered, and authorities in psychiatry, people Ive long wanted to work with. We need to stand on established credibility. I made it clear that I might take a point of view opposed to his, that I didn't believe his dissociation model accounted for the abductees' experiences any more than Hopkins sado-masochistic obsessions. He accepted the debate. We flew back on Sunday. In our overflowing mailbox was a letter from