COL TAGKER llJTERVWtl December 1960 USAF Historical Archives ASI(ASHAF-A} Maxwell AFB, Ala 36112 COLONEL TACKER: Well,. I believe, Sid, that theroe a big dollar- sign involved in this subject. I think that -well I know --that many books and many articles are writwn on this subjeota dues are paid to these olub&J although moat or the clubs do say that they are nonprofit in nature, that they are stmply dedioated to public knowledge, really getting the in- formation out. The groups themselves, as I said are composed to a large extent or interested people like you and I in this scientific a~ that we hnppen to be ino DAVIS: Some of these people, some or these so-called flying saucer buffs. or fans, or ranatioiats. have tape-reoordingG, they have stat~mente that theyve talked to people on Venus -Mars -they make leoturee saying that theyve seen lovely women up there1 what about these people? Are you going to use the tenn "oraokpot" to describe them? COLOJ.ffiL TACKERs Oh, I think there are oraokpota involved, Sid. as there are in any belief of this naturea but here's a real interesting fact about these groupso They're strontlY divided bet\Yeen the so-oalled "oontaoteee", the people that actually rush off and visit Venus and Mars at the drop of a hat~ and the so-called "euphologiats", the people who say that they've had no contact to date but they're sure that there are spa.co ehips from other planeta looking us over. These groups even fight amongst themsel voe and the euphology group, the groups that investigate flying saucers, aotually call the oontaotoes oraolcpots. It's real interestingo CORRICK a Colonel Taoker. just exactly what is the objeoti ve of tho so groups~ these people? What do they want tho Government to do? COLOl'TF.L TACY.ER: Well~ that's hard to aayo They aay that there's been a great deal of seorocy in Govex'lnnentJ they absolutely owrlook the need for intelligence~ intelligenoo olassifioation in Gover.rumenta and they feel that really we could be in groat danger from space ships. maybe a greater danger than any that exists on earth. Actually at this point I guess I should say again what I ve eaid many times --that there is nothing in the Air Force files~ either olaesified or \Ulolassified. which proves or tends to prove tho existence of spe.oo ships from other planets. CORRICKs Do you think the Air l'orne -or this Government is now doing everything it possibly can to traolc dawn this controversy? COLOl;F.L TACKER: I'm absolutely positive in my own mind t hat our Govermnent is doine everything it oan and as an instance let me oitG the vast &oientifio resources that the Government itself haa at ita disposal and by this I m talking about the Air Research and DeveloiDGnt Conanand Whioh would include our basio roeearoh laboratories. the Air Ua.teriel Command. aoientitio oonsultnnte from many different laboratories of our oollegae and un1vers1tiel!l. industrial laboratories. instantaneous ootrrnnnioations world-wide J anywhere in the world that there is a sighting. we can be talldng to them in a matter of minuteBo And then compare this~ really. to the really pathetic effort of a small group of euphologists who have a typewriter and read o. nerfspapcr acootmt of the thing~ and --you see you can t really compare. It's an extreme oar\- trast. really. And the Gover.ament does go out and investigate these th1nga in meticulous detailJ it gives its anewersJ and of course here's where were ques- tioned 1n our interpretation by these groupB who are oonvinoed that they're epaoe ships. I'm sure we re not going to ohange the mind of a person who believes in epaoe sh1pe and v1e don t want to necessarily try. We do want 'l:o oouvinoe them that the United States Government and the Air Force is not w1 th- holding any info~t1on on tho aubjcoto DAVIS: Right now we're sitting in the Pentagon. }Jaw supposing I leave here. I go outside. and I see something that looks like a oignr up in the sky. What happens? I run baok inside here and I tell somebody. ~?hat do you do? COto::EL TACiillRt Nella if you oame baok into the Pentagon and re- ported it to us# I would imtmdiately report it to the nearest air base. which is the initial oouree of action that any citizen should take o The ail. base will conduct a preliminflry investigat,,on end if in the preliminary inTea- tigation they cannot identify the objeot. it will be referx~d immediately to the Air Defense CO'IIVIUU\d and the Aero Space 'l'echnioal Intelligence Center. where it will be run dawn eventually by their investigators. DAVIS s Wha t prompts a soramble., then? If I'm t he only person that eaw thie. would there be a scramble just on the basis of mat I saw? COLOtffiL TACKER: UOJ not on tho bo.sis of just one individual sight- ingo The air base would be alerted immediately. as I ee.id. the nearest air base. And they in turn would immediately o.soertain if many people had seen DAVIS: Haw long does 1 t take to run something like that down? A matter of minutes --hours. days? Weeks? COLOliJ'.L TACKl:R: Well. I'd say the initial preliminary investigation would be done very quicklyJ in this partioulo.r caso. in this area~ it would b e matter of minuteso Because we probably haw many airoraft in the air over 1'Jashington both from Andrev1s Air Foroe Base and Bolling Air Foroe Ba.ses poa- sibly some of our interceptors would be up on n training ndssion and could be diverted very quickly to tho area, we could probably pin this dcwm in a mat- ter of minutes. CORRICKs Is there any particular t ime of year, Colonel Tacker. when these eightingo are more frequent? COLOl'EL TACJ<I:.'R: Well yes, Annt in the gold spring and sUI!D'!lertime when people aro outside and are looking up. I don't imagine we had many re porte on this Eastern seaboard in the last two or three days because most people have been inside next to their fires. CORRICKs Is there any particular area of the country that you get greater numbC:re of reports ? COLQrlF.L TACKER; No, it seems to be rather evenly spread throughout the country. CORRICK t I know we've had quite a fCIW stories from our station in Cleveland. OhiOJ and it seems to me they are seeing an awful lot of flying saucers 1n Cleveland. COJ.ON1L TACKER: I don't think Cleveland ie more guilty thiUl a:ny or the other oitles. Cleveland and Akron do have rather o.otive UFO groups out there whioh are probably stressing again and again. ond again, tho faot that spaoe travel in reverse is an accomplished fact. But I don't think we oould take any one section or one city and pin it davm and say thAt they n>ported more UFOe than anybody elee. DAVIS s What about phases of the moon? Does that have any effect on reports of Ulo'O'e? OLOl\F.L TAClffiR: lTot noticeably, Sid. DAVISs Ie that right? COtmlEL TACKER; Yes, Sir. This has beon looked into. DAVIS r You've eUnined the ef:f'eot of -- COLONRL TACKERs Yes Sir. When I say the Aero Space Technical Intelligence Center, I'm talking about tecltnical intelli~enoe and technical services across the board. And this includes the psychological aspeots of a thing like thie. CORRICKs Colonel Tacker. you'NJ checked out as a pilota you're . oheoked out in jete J CvWNLL TACKER: I'm a master navigator. CORniCK a .Are you. . COL01ll.L TACICF:R: Yea. Ma am. CORPICKa At o.ny rate you lmcnv the potential of things to CCJII:le J COLONEL TACKERt I'm qualified in current jot airoraftJ multi- engine jets. yes maam. CORRICKs Well do you honestly believe that we ever will put a man on the moon. a man into apace? COLoN"LL TACKh'Rt I'm sure of it, Ann. I'm sure well put a man into space and eventually on the moon. I think it's our neY; frontier. CORP.ICKa SOJneone else has piond up that phrase too. lately. Well do you believe personally that there is life on other pla.nete? Aside from your official Air Foroe poaition? COLONEL 'IACKERt I believe there's o. strong possibility that thero'a some type of lifo out there, either vegetable or other"'tise, Ann, and I think we'll probably discover it some dayo CORRICK' How did you got interested in this project of UFO s? COLOtP::L TACKERt iiell, it wasn't a matter of getting interested in it, Anna when I was assigned in the Pentagon this was one project that wa s given to me. Incidentally, there's one little phase of thie vrhere sane of the UFO poople say we do withhold ini'ot'fl8tionJ they will go to an individual o.ir base or someplace else and ask for given details on a specific caseJ and they're referred up to this office, where we have the big picture. We know that .ATIC is working on it out in Ohio --Aero Spaee Technical Intelligence people --we know that the air base is doing somethine;, and we lmow what investigative group is on it. And they're referred up here mainly because we haw the big picture. DAVIS s Colonel, you're a man that does a lot of flying, and the air linea pilots do a lot of flyine;, and theae are competent people; COLONEL TACKER, AbsolutelyS DAVISs --serious people, a lot of airline pilots have made state- menta in the past that they are convinced that they emv something that might haTe come from another planet that wae an object flying -not a mirage, not a refraction or any kind., not a skyhoo~? balloon. Now how do you ans,.,.,r these questions? cor..onF.L TACRERt Well I'm convinced that they saw somethin~ SidJ but I'm also oonvinoed they didn't sec a apace ship as yetJ many things enter into a pilot a way of life. Some fatigue, vertigo -t hat type of thing. Many of them have seen lights which they couldn't identify for the moment, and a moment later they \'1ere identified aa a light on the gro1.md. CORRICK: Colonel Tacker I m sorry to interrupt, but our time ie up. Thank you tor providing a Washington viewpoint about flying aauoera. Our guest on Washington Viewpoint tonight ho.e been Colonel Lawrence J o Taoker, Chief of the l/.ago.sine and Book Branoh of the Un1 ted States Air Force Office of Informtiono This program originated tonight in Colonel Tacker's office in the Pent agono This is Ann Corriok with Sid Davia. FOa RElEASE: 9 PM.. EST. Tues --Deo.e_plber 20 1960 " WASHINGTON VIE\n'ODlT " PRODUCED BY The Westinghouse Broadcasting Co Inc. GUEST Lt. Col. Lemrenoe J. Tacker Chief o the Mago.z 1ne & Book Branch of the A1r Force Office of Information. INTERVIEWED BY: Ann Corrlok AseiGtant Chief. WEe Washington News Bureau Washington Corroopondont "WASHIUGTON VIEftPOINT" is heard in Vlaahington at 9 PM. EST, Tuesday. Deoembor 20, 1960, oTer radio station V~7DC 1626 K Street Room :/r~06 Wo.shingt<On 6~ Do Co STerling 3-o90? FOR RElEASE: 9 P.Mo., EST, Tuesdc.y, ~oomber 20~ 1960 "WASHINGTON VIEWPOINT" CORRICK a Good evening. This is Ann Corrick with Sid Davie at the Pentagon in Waahington. Washington Viewpoint tonight is concerned with n ourlous oontroversy .....,. flying se.uoers. Are they real or are they imagined? Our guoet on Washingtan Viewpoint has devoted many years of study to this question. Be is LieU"centmt Colonel lAwrence J. Tacker., a i'tar o<nn_, bat V0te~an and master navigator with the United states Air Force6 Colonel Tacker currently is Cl'-..ief' of (:he Magazine and Book Branoh of the Air Force Office of intor.matiou. or unidentified flying objects as thoy~ celled~ led him to publish a book earlier this month which describes just what the Air Force is doing abou'~ pcrsie~ent reports the.t soma one soiOOwher.e has actually spotted flying sa.u .. cere. The ti:ble of Colonel To.oker s book., by the wayD is Fli!t(i ~uoers and the Uo So Air Foroe;~ published by Van Nos{;rancl., anii it represents the o.fticio.l Air Force position on the quesCia:n. of whaChar they ara real or 1g1n~d. Welle Colonel, just what ia the official Air Foroo position; are there ae'\:ually li~tle people from a. oeleatie.l ouli;ure flyiDg around spying The o.f'icial Air Force position on i'lyi.--,.g aaucera o:r ~pace ships f:?o!l\ other planets :.a that we do no~ deny the possibility that life could exis-t ot't thero some place and t.'l-lat \ visit from outar epaoo could hnppon. What we say is tha t to da~ it has noc That is~ ue have no evidence on he.nd to prove the existence of apace ehipa or the faot tha.t space (;ravel in 1~ve rae i a fait aoccmpl i. CORRICK: And yet a lot of people who t.U'S intelligenc and aler1; people claim thac they actually have seou who.t must be a spaoo ship from soma COLONJ;L TACKERs Y'ell if they believe this. Ann. it's as a pure aot of faith. Aatually the Air Force does not deny the faot that many solid oi tizena han eeen objects or phenomena in the sky which have myetified them for a time. In moat instances when they reported theae sightings to the Air Foroe we haw been able to identify the object or the phencmena that they viewed and in most instance the reporting persons are satisfied with our interpretation. CORRICKa Sid Daviao DAVIS: Colonel. in your book you aay "there are just not anJ manned space shipa yvt." How are you so sure? COLONEL TACKER: Beoauae to date. Sid, there is no evidence to aub- atantiate such a fantastic olatm. DAVIS s Well you have a lot of report a that are unexplained and this is the way you list them in your book. \'ihat about the unexplained ones, the tmlalown one a? COlONEL TACKER: Well., the tmlmown or unexplained casea in the last fn years have run about two per oent of the total n\.UUber of sighting& J and in most or these instances the Air Force feels that if more imtrediato data had been gathered initially at the acene of the sighting, these too could have been explained. Howe'nt r we can t go along with the theory of the UFO groupe and many of the persons associated with these groups that because we have not come up with a definite answer in a very few cases# that this ia an argument for the exiatenoe or space ships. CORRICKs Well Colonel Tacker., what do moet of these eightings turn out to be? COLONEL TACKER: Well~ 1n moat oases, Am.-they are either conven- tional objects seen under extenuating oiroumatanoes like high-flying aircraft under odd lighting ocmdi tiona or in tmusual oloud forma tiona, or aircraft seen through a mist or rain, or they are aerial phenomena or astrophysical phen001ena as a mook sun or a bolide or fireball, meteor, or a planot seen by refraction due to a temperature inversion --something along these lines. CORRICKa Vlhat is the source of moat of these reporta? What kind of people oall them in to you? COLONEL TACKERa Oh, a great many people oall them ino .A.e I said before~ the great majority of these people are patriotic and honest oitizena who are mystified by what they see initially and they make their reports to the Air Foroe to try to find out, number one, I think most of them are moti- vated, as I said., patriotically --try to help uao You must remember that the UFO Program, or the Flying Saucer Program, as some people prefer to oall it, is a small integral part of our overall air defe~e misaiono By law the UoSo Air Fo!'Oe is charged w1 th the air defense of the United States J and when we get a report of a sighting visually, maybe at some town a few miles away from an air baee or on a radar soope, and we do get returns on Tadar scopes now and then that look as though they are actual objeota in the ak;n lre might scramble an aircraft o By "soramblo I mean get it off immediately, it's an aircr~ that s on fighter alert and it goes up to investigate. In all instances they oome back either with o. known identification of an airliner or a balloon, or they come baok with a negative result, that ia they found nothingo Well this is where the UFO program begins, and the tech- nical intelligence people begin at this point and try to identify or coma up with an answer for Tihat caused the sighting; either to the observer on the gro\Dld or \'That caused the return on the radar scope o DAVISt Colonel, what about all the charges and speculation that the Air Foroo has aecret documents on file that are ooncluaiona to tho UFO si tua- tion and refuses to release the information? COLOUJ::L TACKER a This ie pure rubbish, Sid. There aro no such documents. I've gone through the files, l'vo looked thoroughly for any auoh an Air Foroe oonolueion. I've never .t'ound anything t o this Gffect and I'd like to a dd that the Air Force regulation on this subject, 200-2, paragraph 18 to be exaot . cites apeo1f1cally that UFO eigntings will not be classified. DAVIS r What other countries have frequent flying saucer reports? COLONEL TACKERa Well., just from my e~rience and reading many of the reports from our own Aero-Space Technical Intelligence Center. I would say that, really. the countries that have moat of the repo1~a would be Austra- lia, New Zealand, England and the South American or Spaniohopeald.ng countries. DAVIS t What about Russia? COLONEL TACKERs 'l1lat' a a difficult question. We have received on occasion through our own sources over there~ people stationed w1 thin Russia at various t imes, second-hand reports of the fact that UFO's or flying sauoore have been seen there, but naturally we receive no direct result from Russian authorities on this subjeoto DAVIS a Well. do Russian scientists tell you anything about their investigations ot these things? Do they do anything about these reports in Russia that you know of? COLOlJEL TACKERs Not that I know o. SidJ noo CORRICKs Colonel Tacker., since the Air Foroe has begun investigating theee s ighting& have these reports increased or decreased 7 COLONEL TACKER: Well !Vd ~ay they've been definitely on the decrease, Anno 1-'{e had a oouple of peak years., as I pointed out in the book, ~;fifty-tvro and fif'ty-eewno In 1952 we quite o. rash of sightingu that seemed to start with the famous Washington, Do Co l!lightings, in 1952, and in 1957 we had a tremendous rash of sightinge all over tho country ri~t after Sputnik I was CORRICK, I soe. Well how many have you had, eay this year, ae compared to last Y\'a!'? COLOlllil. TACKER' \'fell -- CORRICKa A gree:(; decrease, a great incN~aoe? COLO:m.L TACKER, I'd say a great deorense. I beliew to dato vre ve had under two hundred reports for this year. CORRICKa Earlier you mentioned that the unexplained eig.h:tings 1"8llged in the two per cent aroa COI..OlffiL TACKER a ApproximaC:ely two per cent for the last four or fiw years. Let me go out --this is a ola.im, ~ally, of some of the UFO groups in claiming that the Air Foroe withholds information on this subjeoto They say that we give an erroneous figure 'man wo give two per cent and I have been very careful to stress that tha.t ie in the last five years. in the program, I'd say that UFO unlcnowns ran as high as twenty per oent back in the 1940so Again this was due to the fact that it was an entirely new area to explore. our investigative techniques ,.1oren t up to what they are n<m. we didn't have facilities at our disposal then like --let me give you a real good exwmplea tho National Space Surveillance Centor at Bedford, l~ssa- ohusetts which can tell you on the first orbit i Russia or the United States hae put so:mothing up. And certainly this unit at Bedford would be able to tell us if' space shipa were in our skios o DAVIS a Colonel. you're very positive about your feeling that if there's no evidenc