USAF Historical Archives ASI(ASHAF-A) THE PRESS: But you said it can be simply a r eflection of somethinG on the gr ound. CAPI'AIN JAMES : \olell., an. object an tho ground is somethi ng bac k t o the reflection l:>:; a curved path. THE pro:ss: I see. TEE PRESS : I n ather "' ords it doesh' t have to be in tho a i r . CAPrAI N JAMES: That' s c orrect. 'I' HE PRESS : In the area: .c,pvt.lred by the s weep on CAPTAIN JAMES: It has to be in the arca:covered by the r a dar set. It has t o be within the r anee. HE PRESS: But not in the a i r CAPI'AIN JAMES: But not i n the air . THE PRESS: rt. of sround targets give those CAPTAIN JAMES: It depo~da on the amount of t enper ature inver s i on and the s i ze and shape of the ground ob j 0cte THE PRESS: vloulcl this reflect t on account f or simultaneous ru.dar sightings a nd visual sighti ngs which a ppear t.o qoin~ide on t ho basis of conversat i ons between adar operator and the observer outsi de? CAPTAIN J/J.1ES: There is sooe possibility of thlt due to t ho orume e f fects. THE PRESS: Why would these tumperatur e inversions c hango l o cation e o rapidly or travel? APTAIN JAMES: \.fell, actually, tt' can be tho a ppearance or dis~ppearsnce of differ ent gr ound targets giving the appcr~runce of somethinG oovin~ when, tt.ctually, the different objects a r c standing still. THE PRESS: Would these pseudo-blips cause any difficultie s in' c onbat at all? CAPTAIN JAMES: Not to pe ople that unde~staad what ' s ing on . They do caus e difficulty THE PRESS: Then the experienc e d oper at or s real l y ll the di f f er ence between -- CAPTAIN JAMES: That's correct. PRESS: How ab out the CAA men? CAP.rAI N JAMES : I don't know. THE PRESS: Would the dis appea r anc e or reappear ance these blips be accounted for by the movement of a cloud nk that r eflected a ground t ar get? CAPTAIN JAMES: Well, a ctually, it' s not a cloud bank . I t ' s a t emper ature inver-si on of t he a tmospher e . You see, if war m air comes in over a cool a r ea , you have a ture inver s i on and the at mosphe r e can be per f ectly clear, and still the r a ys will b e bent. THE PRESS: Would that account f or 'the f act that these i meges dis appear ed and reappear e d . on the se screens r ec entl y? CAPTAI N JAMES: I'm n ot positive about that. Ther e ' s ssibility. HE PRESS: Captain, was ther e t e mper ature inver sion in this a r ea lust Saturday night? CAPTAI N JAMES: Ther e wa s PRESS: And the Saturday night pr ece ding? PrA IN JAMES: I ' m not sure but ther e was l a st Saturday night. about the one pr eceding , HE PRESS: Wa s ther e one l a st night? PrA IN JAMES: I don't know. THE PRESS: Captain, did any two s et s in this area get a fix on t hese so- calle d sa ucer s ar ound her e? PTAIN JAMES: The information we ha ve isn't good enough t o det er m ine th3t . THE PRESS: You don't and Washi~gton Nationa l A P9~t on anything? . know whethe r Andre ws Field actually got a triangulation CAPrA IN JAMES: You see, the records made and kept e r en 't accura t e enough t~ tie ith~t in that cios'e . HE PRESS:' Wn9.t :i s the possibility of these being other then phenomena ? MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD~ Well:, I'd like to maybe lieve Captain Jame~ . . ,Jus~ ,.fl, .,m,inl,tte . Yo'\,\r quest ion i s wha t ? THE PRESS: Wha t ' i s the 'possibility of t hese sightings b eing othe r the n optich.l ~r ntq:~o~plw:-ic p.:1enomen('l.? In othe r words , wha t i s the poseibiliJ.;y of the i r ut!!..ng guided missiles launche d from some othe r c~untry, for. exump;Le? MAJOR GENER:\ 1 SAMFOP.D: Well, if you could s e l ect out of this mass any pe.r t icul !' one or two tmd. nto.rt working on them and say, "What is .t~1~ pussi'?;j } .. ity of the m being these t h ings?" Then yo'l.:. c.;mP-. i,~,; ~!:1-:> po;.:nt '1.nd say this one i s r e pur. t.E::C:. to hllve _dnr.e thL1e,s w ::.~c .1:: .re~1.1..:tre f ur it to do thos 0 th-tngs e i t:he r on0 of t'ivv 90n~::..t-.::..ohs/ n.bG.o:'...ut e u:inximum or n o mass . If t-~li.s :i.s '1. th:iJ. g in t e rms cf' a guide d ile , it does t he s e i,ln.c.gs thRt h:1ve bc:en me1:.sure d and reported. It c~n ao thu~e. ~hings ~f ther e i s the oretically no limit to the power inv9.~v~d c.n d the r e i s the orc:tic nlly n o involved. ~l1e~ 's: OA$. of the conditions thac would say, well, if someone solved,<;>* e of those problems, this could then b e expl1.ine d a s one. O.f t.r..ose i: a~.D.~s. You find another ; one a n d 1 t hn s .:. -it jJ.s~ de velops ~ jyr,o n o othe r purpos e or no othe r pa t t ern that c(:.lli b e ass<c:La t 0d with th~m, a missile . Thos e which we wight i derccify as b e i J.13 missiles will b e tro.c kad. They '11 ha ve a truck ,t o aGvelop sot .e,;hing tha t peopl e c on put a m~asurement t o . I.dori know wheth~r th~t a nswers the question, It s~tisfi~s ~gme o~ it, but maybe not ~11 of it. THE PRESS: Ha ve ther e been any such instances so f a r in which you hod information tha t indicat e d tha t eithe r these two conditions we r e fulfilled? . . MAJOR GENERAL SAMFO:tm: Absolute , no mo.ss? THE PRESS: No 1 imi t to the powe r M1\.JOR ODNERAL SAMFORD: You that ther e ' s nothing there ! kllf'w, whnt "no ughter ) . THE PRESS: How about the power ? .; ~ MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORJ').: Int er ms of earthly we i ghts earthly value . 'l'IIE PRESS: Yes. MAJOB GENERAL SAMFORD: And unlimite d power --thnt .~e~ns pow.er . of suchfantastic higher limits that it i s a theQretfca l unlimite d --it's nob c.nything that we can under- s~d . It's like my trying to under s t and--I want to be car e - ful because I was going t o say a million dollars, but I can't understand a hundre d! It's one of those question s of unlimited power that .. just get s. :beyor..~ your comr-rehension that ho.s t o be use d t o meet this . THE PRESS: Gener al, do you ha ve cny t entative c on- clusion or even a trend t owards u belief of wtint these locc l blips er e? Ther e ' s been talk that you did .ha ve the eat inversions those nights. Ar e you all incline d to believe th~t's what that i s ? .. MAJOR r rumRAL SAMFORD: I think thnt we 're learni:ag progres sively more and oore a~out ~he r a dar and that these instances very likely ar e meyb e go.od observatio11.s that the r a a ar ca n make of something but not likely ~o be observa~ions of the things that the r a dar was desigpe t ~o observe ( l aughter). Now, (luught er 1 --all rigtt. Now, le~'s say --we don't know muoh r.bout --ead I' 11 b e gettiJl.g f ar llfiel d t eelmically -- we dor. 't know much aboub the Northern Li ghts . We'd like t o be ble t o measure thnt n little biu bet~r. Thnt i s the ki~ of thought I was.trying to express by s nying reQ~r was intended to observe a ircr aftfor control of aircr aft a~ t o deal with ircraft. Now, you may have sci entific aovantnges for observa - tion t hat it wasn't intende d for . I .wonder if you' q. spea k to my point on that, Captci~ J ames, whether I've gotten ~oo f ar a f i eld o~ something I don't know anything about. CAPTAIN JAMES: Yes, sir; tho.t ' s ~uite true . We f i nd that sometimes the r a da r set will Q~. formed i n c manner esirable and due t o the f act that it doesn't happe~ every day everyone i sn't f nmilia r with those char acteristics a nd it sometimes turns out to b e n mys t ery. THE PRESS:. Well, getting back, i f I may follow it up, on these local r adar observations , then you come t o the t entative conclusion that they're physical phenomena? Would you say that ? MAJ OR GENERAL SAMFORD: I think so, yes THE PRESS: How i s it we haven't ha d them bef ore? . THE PRESS: Well, that's what I was going t o get to . What's the history ef this thing? Ea dar oper ators in the past, when you inquire of them; have they seen s i milar lights in t he past and be cause they ~eyer bother ed to associat e t hem with flying s aucer s they've never gotten in the news paper s ? ~\JOR GENERAL SAMFORn: Oh, they have associated them in the past with things t ho.t . we r e thought desi ro.bl e to intercept. I said a mi nute a go we've intercepted flocks of duc ks and s i mila r things. Ther e ' s some his tory of t he l ack of identification of friendly aircr aft wh i ch c auses a lot of unnecessary interceptions in some parts of the world , being ixed up with a lot of thi s s~rt of thing too in which we ' ve had many interceptions that went out a nd i dentified a friendly tha t s hould b.O.vc been. est ablis hed. by some othe r method, but ixe d up with.those ther e '.vc been many of these attempts to identif y an unlm own, tl].e.t f i zzled out in the s ame wa y that the current ones have fi zzled out THE PRESS: In other words , it i s not a r ar e phenomenon, this thing that ?appened Saturday night and the Saturday befor e MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: I t i s not a rare phenomenon. THE PRESS: Itts n ot rar e , and it occurs often enough so tha t you do have a his t ory, a nd . r ndar experts ha ve been trying t o find out what ca uses them; i s that r~ght? MJ\JOR GENERAL SAMFORD: That is correct. Yes, sir. THE PRESS: Gener a l Samford, has the Air Force conduct ed any i ndependent r esear ch through universities or through the r a da r people, the Gilfillen peopl e or whoever ? MAJOR GENERAL S.AMFO~: Yes, sir. We have a. number ilable consult ant s , s~me contra ct s that ha ve been ini~iated, some of them tha.t ar e being thought of, but, again, I think I'd like t o go back to the point of the profit in this thing perha ps being a mea surement first, an adequate measurement thut can go t o sci ence . Reports of the same kind that we've ~een getting except for this Bdditiona l mechanical asset or opportlmity c alled the r a dar ha ve b een going on since the Bible times. Now, the r adar gives un dditiona l opportunity to observe something about th~t, but it still doesn't r.1eusure it with the kind of preci s ion that i s to put it into analysis. THE PRESS: Ar e you getting something to do that ? MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORJ): We h0.ve some hope with a mera that ha s on the front of it e --will you describe what CAPTAIN ill~S: It has a de-fraction grid. !-1AJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: Yes, a de-fraction gri d on the front of it that will be useful a gainst lights because through the.t de-fraction you'll be able to sny, from what ubstance was this light mnde ? Whnt gases were burning? Was it gas? Wus it incundesc ence? nnd so forth. Now, those c ameras - -the l ens i s about a $15. ite m, or this gri d i s , nd the camer a i s n.bout a $15 item. We ho.ve on order a snmll qoontity, two hundre d plus of tb:ose. We hope to be cble t o distribute those into the hands of people who mi ght h~ve opportunity. Now, with the great diver sity of.peopl e who port 1 t ' s not too easy to put your fi'nger on who has the highest opportunity to r eport, into whose hands s uch a device should go, but we think we Illfl.Y learn .who might be the most optimum r eporter s . A greut volume of th~se cnmeras t o scatter to try through the shotgun approach t o g0t r eports doesn't l ook like t oo valuable a project but that is one way of trying to mensure whnt these lights a r e . THE PRESS: For what purpose --they ha ve hnd imilc.r gadgets before , I mean, to oeasure or to det er mine the origin of what gene r at es the light. Isthis a new type? CAPrA IN JAMES: The grid is. Iv1AJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: hasn't b een a imed s pecifically a t these items as f ar as we know. It's not new exc ept that it these items or foc used on THE PR~SS: Gene r al, the Captnin mention ed a mo~ent c1go or bad the thought that when ther e i s temper ature inversion the men know who ar e observing r a dar. Is it all right to nslt if the Air Force thinks thnt these obJects the other night wer e a r esult of temper ature inver s i on? MAJ OR GENERAL S~WORD: Well; I'll an swer th~t first, try to, andthen ask Captain J ames for on opinion. X don't think that we 0.r e quite sure that the Menzel theory of temper- ature inver sion or that scientists a r e sure that that i s a good theory. rt: I s s upported by s.ome peopl e . Other people who have qua l competence , it would appear, discredit it. So the gamble as t o whethe r th::lt 1 s the ca use or not is about a fifty-fifty proposition. It's appealing. It does satisfy c ertain concerns . thnt a f air s t ntement or .answer to that ' question? C.\Pl'AIN JAMES: Sir, the Menze l theory applies mr.inly t o light r ays . MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: Yes . CAPTAIN JAMES: . In regar d t o the temper ature inversi on ffect on r a dar waves that .i s ~airly well est ablis hed THE PRESS: Ther e ' s no doubt about the latt er, i s CAPTAIN JAMES: The.t ' s right. ' THE PRESS: That's been est~blished. TIIE PRESS: nd it wns not -- CAPI'AIN JANES: We. don't . ha ve s uffi c i cnt information t o say de finite l y that tha t was t he c~use THE PRESS : You sa i d nn e xperienced rnd~r operator could t el l the diff er ence . CAPI'AIN J AMES: I would s ay so THE PRE3S: W~sn't.there a na va l b~ttle during the in which ther e was a grectt eng".gement fought ag~inst nn inver s i on of r a dar? .. CA~AIN ~AMES: I understand th~t ha ppened. THE PRESS: You ha d two experts over ther e last turda y night, M~jor Fo,~net r.nd Lieutenunt Holcomb, who described the msel ves as r a da r t echnician s and i nt elligence offic er s . What wa s their opinion? :' MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: May I try t o make anot her an swer and ask f or support or negation, on the quality of the r a dar oper a tor. I ' personally.don't f e el that is ne cessaril y associ at ed with quality of r a da r oper ators be cause r a dar oper at or s of gr e at quality o.r e going t o be c onfuse d by the things which now appear ~nd may a ppear in a r a dar . The bility to use the r a dar f or the 'thfng ft. wa s designed for lieve , dependent upon the thihg thnt they see doing n(!)rtnal act. I f it d'oe s A. normal act, t hen it becomes identif i ed as the 'thing thnt they thbught'.'it wa s and t hen it pulls itsel f al ong through this mass of indi cat i on a nd t hey say, "That one ha s normal.. process-es."" 1 think t ha t a escripti on of a GCA l anding ha s some bearing on that in whi ch ssoci a t ed with the GCA you have t o make a cer t ain number of queries and do' n certain number of things and t hen come identif i ed through the f act t hat you obey . Other things that ar e in ther e 'don't ob ey . I t' you obey, t hen you have o.n identity end you ca h then be" foll owe d wit h prec i s i on . uldn't like t o say that this i s a f unction of incdequnt e tions . I think it's n thing that c an happen to any rada~ oper at or. If he sees something i n t her e and says, one i s ne ither behaving nor any ot her normc.l patt ern. " it? Curd.osity sti mulus 1 any' ot her kind of stimulus ult in over emphasi s at any particular time on any r a da r s cope. : These r ec ently appear t o have been much mor e olid r eturns than ar e ordinarily classi f i able by the ar gu- ments that I have just given . : Would you address yourself to what I ' ve just said? THE PRESS : the questi.on~ Ye s . What do the experts think? MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: The experts ? THE PRESS: id they r ep ort to you ? that s nw it l us t Saturday night. THE PRESS: TWo of them s awit in-- THE PREss: Wha t . did t hey s a y? MAJOR GENERAL'SAMFORD: They said the y made good THE PRESS: Did they draw any conclusion e.s to what they wer e , whether they wer e clouds? t4AJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: they think that they ought to be They made good returns and followe d up. THE PRESS: But n ow you come to the gener a l either .heat :inversions or some C'ther substance. MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: The 1>hrase "without s ubs t ance " bother s me a littl e . THE PRESS: Well, could you -- MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: --so.y what we do think? THE !'BESS: Yes. MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: I think that the highest obability i s thllt these or e phenomen a us's'oci at e d with the intellectua l nnd scientific inter e s t s that we ar e on the r oad to learn mor e about but that ther e i s nothing in them that i s soci at ed with material or vehicles or 'miss'iles that ar e directed agai ns t the Unite d St at e s . THE PRESS : General, y~u Rai d that - -can you stop that s hor t of the Unite d St ates, sir, or the menace to the United St ates 7 . . .. MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: I ' m sorry - THE PRESS: Cnn .you stop that st~:ttement s hor t of ur mena c e t o the United St~t es? MAJOR GENERAL SAMFORD: Well, thllt was the --I think that is the par t that I bel i eved. Now, what was it t~at I would ha ve said 0therwise? THE PRESS: Well, you s a i d wer e not associat ed th vehicles ~- THE PRESS: Materials. THE PRESS : Missiles. THE PnESS: Period! THE PRESS: M~teri~l, vehicles, a nd missiles directe d ~gcinst the Unite d St ates. THE PRESS: The question wh~ther these a r e hostile not makes very little differ ence . What we're trying t o get ~re you eliminnting excluding from any consideration a issile , a vehicle or r.>..ny other materhtl object t ha t mi ght flying through the air other tha n sound or light or some other intangible ? THE PRESS.: violnting our Somebody from this pl~net air spuce. (Laughter) or some othe r MJ\J OB GENERAL SAMFORD: The. astr onomer s a r e our best dviser s , of course , in ~his ~usiness of visitors from else- where . The nstronomer s photograph the sky continuously per- haps with the mos t a dequc.t e phot oar uphy in exi s t ence txnd the complet e absence of things ~hich would ha ve to be in t heir a ppearance f or many days e.nd months to come f rom some1o1her e It doesn't cause the m to ha ve r.ny -enthus i asm whut s oever in thinking about this other side of it. 'l'HE PRESS : ported c.ny sightings Have any astronomical l abor atories r e - "io.'he ts